Kolzene, Fri 06 Nov 2015, 02:37 писал(а):
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Kolzene писал(а):
So no, "credits" will not exist. No credit, no debt, no money. Just the amount that is consumed (and produced) measured in simple, scientific units that the individual does not need to concern themselves with.
Total production capacity in terms of energy and the number of users in the system are known. So users can calculate their virtual share of production. Or technocrats are going to make that informatin top secret?
"Share of production"? Sure, people can know that if they want. It would only be of academic interest however.
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I need some info about imputed energy value of goods and services. As I can understand, services are provided for free inside technate , but non-free for rest of the world. Is it true?
Goods and services shared with other countries would most likely be free as well, unless it was part of some kind of treaty. Then there might be some agreement of exchange:
TTCD писал(а):
By keeping in constant touch with world affairs, the Foreign Relations Sequence would instantly be aware of an emergency occurring in any area and so would be able to render whatever assistance it required of personnel or supplies. All such assistance would, of course, be given without any strings attached.
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What about of energy cost of high-skill job and resulted goods or services of this job? For example production of some commodity is needed mental efforts so consumed energy equals 2000+32* kilogram calories as wokrer's food. Other commodity is needed physical labour so consumed energy equals 2000+2000 kilogram calories as worker's food.
So the second commodity will equal more production capacity than first one. Is it all right?
No. Worker input of energy is not considered. Compared to the energy put in by machines it is insignificant anyway. Plus it is too difficult to measure. There simply is no point.
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Some of my opponents from Australia thinks this is unnatural, as today skilled labor creates the more value of product than unskilled labour (skilled labour creats more valuable product). He thinks high salaries of skilled workers are explained by more valuable products they produse, and high imputed price of these products is explained by high created value by skilled labour. He said that if I cannot explain high salaries of skilled wokrers of today market, technocracy has poor theoretical base.
Also he thinks: The fact, that commodity can give some profit for retailer, proves commodity price is created by labor (like Marx's labor value).
All of which is irrelevant Price-System talk when concerning Technocracy. When in a system of abundance, you are not putting any artificial limits on people's consumption (just natural ones). How then, can you limit one person more than another? And even if you did, by what measure? The Price System uses the concept of "value", but this is a subjective notion, and not scientific. In Technocracy, if it takes 300 KJ to produce a chair (random number), then that is what it will cost and will remain so until the production system changes to affect that in some way. Meanwhile, citizens will not be aware of any limits on their consumption.
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Then he replaced profit by value added** in his denunciations.
See what I mean? "Value".
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Also I have shown him that skilled and unskilled labor can be payed as equal or even inverse way. But he still thinks that majority of skilled workers are higher payed.
Paid where? In most places today? Of course. But in a Technocracy people are not "paid" anything. They simply have a right to consume that is no different from anyone else. (Obvious exceptions for materials or equipment that require certification before using, like cars do today.)
Kolzene, Fri 06 Nov 2015, 14:08 писал(а):
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What about handmade goods or software creation (not GPL) or equipment repair determination -- they are completely consist of human labor?
Again I say that Technocracy only applies to matters of abundance, and that means items that can be mass-produced. This includes software, since while it is designed by hand, it is copied and distributed automatically, by computer. It is in fact the best example of abundance (and the attempts at enforced scarcity via IP/DRM) we have today.
Hand-made objects will be personal projects by individuals. If they wish to offer them to others, then I'll remind you of the axiom: problems of abundance require solutions of abundance, while problems of scarcity require scarcity solutions. In other words, if they want to do this, they will need to use a scarcity-based solution for it. For example, they may decide to give it away. Or they may trade it for something else that is scarce (i.e. barter). But if they make something that can be mass-produced, and there is any kind of demand for it, then the Technate will mass-produce it, and their item will no longer be scarce and hence of no tradeable value, unless they keep it entirely secret. Something like that might in this case hold scarcity value because it is "hand-made" or an "original", but I expect that these types of qualities are only of interest to people used to the Price System, where these qualities are hyped as being good in order to help enforced scarcity, which is something that is reprehensible to anyone who likes the idea of the most people possible being able to enjoy things that people make. Think of all the "hand-made by blind children in Tibet" and "made with endangered animal parts" products that are of such high value today. It's terrible.
Equipment repair isn't really production, it's a service, so it is handled differently. More like education and health care. But there is always the possibility of automating that as well, for well known types of failures. For example, it is known that the tiles used to protect the American space shuttle during atmospheric re-entry need to be replaced after every mission. This could easily be done by machine since it is a known and consistent process. Being able to do more complicated repairs is simply a matter of technical sophistication, and that service too will whither away as technology advances.
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Paid where? In most places today?
Yep, my Australian opponent tries to analyse current market. And he thinks that if I don't give answer he refute technocracy theoretical base.
That's pretty common. All people know is the Price System, so they try to evaluate Technocracy as though it is just more of the same. That's why it is so important to make sure people know that you are talking about something completely different from anything else they know, by pointing out the differences between Technocracy and all Price Systems, and not getting too mired in debates about specific forms of the Price System.
Also, because they are learning it in a forum and not in a systematic way (like the TSC), they are just getting bits of Technocracy from all over the place, and the gaps in their knowledge they fill in with Price System knowledge, and then assume that they are flaws in the design, rather than gaps in their knowledge. It makes teaching technocracy hard, and why I mostly am focusing on trying to develop a more systematic way for people to learn it that will be easier to catch on than the old TSC. But for this reason don't be discouraged if people don't seem to understand Technocracy from forum posts. It's one of the worst ways of learning it that I've found.
Kolzene, Thu 12 Nov 2015, 14:19 писал(а):
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What protection is provided for virtual energy accounts ?
There's nothing 'virtual' about it, and these are not 'accounts' like bank accounts. Remember, it is nothing like money, there is nothing that is exchanged. It is simply a measurement of how much a person consumes. A better analogy would be a person's pedometer measuring how far they walk. They don't "own" or "exchange" "kilometres" for anything, they simply are a measurement of activity. These aren't "reward miles" that can be exchanged for a new toaster. If it is an "account", it's more like your account on this forum, in that it keeps track of how many messages you post, but otherwise doesn't "give" you anything to give back, or to others. It's just a measurement of the number of times you post.
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Is there a chance that someone fake account or do something with third citizen's account without the knowledge of the account holder? Is there a possibility of intervention in the operation of the Technate supercomputer?
Sure it's possible, no security is absolute. But the important question here is, why would anyone do that? What possible motivation could they have? If it was like a bank account, there would currency units to "take" for themselves to use, but this is not like that. This is like I said a forum account. It would be like me hacking into your forum account to change the number of posts you've written. Why would I do that? There's no gain in it for me. It doesn't change the fact that I can post as much as I want. I won't get more "posts" out of it. All I'd be doing is screwing with the accounting system making things harder for the administrators, assuming they use that information.
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Will bitcoin or zerocoin protocol be used?
No, because those are money, currency. Nothing at all like what we're talking about here. They are "owned". They are scarce. You do not "own" the number of kilometres you walk or the number of forum posts you write. You cannot exchange or trade those kilometres or posts with others. It's the same with Energy Accounting. The system records that you ate 100 steaks last cycle. Those steaks cost the Technate x joules to make and deliver to you. That's all. You can't exchange, trade, or steal those joules with/from anyone any more than you can other units of measurement, like kilometres or forum posts.
Sorry if I'm sounding repetitive here but this needs to be clear and I know some people have a problem understanding the difference.
Вы уже давали эту феерию в ссылках.
А Вы и после 2-го раза не прочли. Автор пишет, про цену европейского опциона колл и почему входящие параметры нужно интерпретировать иначе:
https://archive.org/download/technate/book.pdf , page 41 писал(а):
I had been thinking about an analytical thermodynamic theory of life systems for many years when I learned about the Black-Scholes option theory. The most fundamental property of life is their ability to extract low entropy from the environment to compensate continuous dissipation. Soon I realized this property can be represented by lognormal processes, where r is the rate of extraction of low entropy and σ is the rate of diffusion. Every stochastic process can be mapped into a deterministic thermodynamic equation, which is often easier to handle and yields more results. So I hope Black-Scholes equation and option theory may offer some insight for an analytical thermodynamic theory of life systems. After several years, I first developed such a theory based an analogy between option theory and living systems. Later I was able to derive the theory directly without depending on its analogy with option theory. In the next section, we will provide an updated version of this theory.
Я связалась с Jing Chen через e-mail
chenj@unbc.ca . Поэтому можете смело свои перлы писать ему.
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-- начальные условия с нулевым доходом (для предотвращения возможности арбитража).